Krishna’s Intense Love For His Devotees

Krishna’s Intense Love For His Devotees

THE FOLLOWING LECTURE ON SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM, CANTO 3, CHAPTER 1, QUESTIONS BY VIDURA, TEXT 31, WAS GIVEN BY HIS HOLINESS BHAKTI CHARU SWAMI ON 10 APRIL 2008 IN ISKCON UJJAIN, INDIA.

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

Srimad Bhagavatam, third Canto, chapter one, text thirty one. This chapter is entitled as ‘Questions By Vidura.’

kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam

Synonyms:
kshemam — all good; sah — he; kaccit — whether; yuyudhanah — Satyaki; aste — is there; yah — one who; phalgunat — from Arjuna; labdha — has achieved; dhanuh-rahasyah — one who understands the intricacies of military art; lebhe — also achieved; anjasa — summarily; adhokshaja — of the Transcendence; sevaya — by service; eva — certainly; gatim — destination; tadiyam — transcendental; yatibhih — by great renouncers; durapam — very difficult to achieve.

Translation:
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

Purport:
The destination of transcendence is to become the personal associate of the Personality of Godhead, who is known as adhokshaja, He who is beyond the reach of the senses. The renouncers of the world, the sannyasis, give up all worldly connections, namely, family, wife, children, friends, home, wealth — everything — to attain the transcendental bliss of Brahman happiness. But adhokshaja happiness is beyond Brahman happiness. The empiric philosophers enjoy a transcendental quality of bliss by philosophical speculation on the Supreme Truth, but beyond that pleasure is the pleasure enjoyed by Brahman in His eternal form of the Personality of Godhead. Brahman bliss is enjoyed by living entities after liberation from material bondage. But Parabrahman, the Personality of Godhead, enjoys eternally bliss of His own potency, which is called the hladini potency. The empiric philosopher who studies Brahman by negation of the external features has not yet learned the quality of the hladini potency of Brahman. Out of many potencies of the Omnipotent, there are three features of His internal potency — namely samvit, sandhini and hladini. And in spite of their strict adherence to the principles of yama, niyama, asana, dhyana, dharana and pranayama, the great yogis and jnanis are unable to enter into the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is, however, easily realized by the devotees of the Lord by dint of devotional service. Yuyudhana achieved this stage of life, just as he achieved expert knowledge in military science from Arjuna. Thus his life was successful to the fullest extent from both the material and spiritual angles of vision. That is the way of devotional service to the Lord.
[End of Purport]
kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

So Yuyudhana or Satyaki is an eternal associate of Krishna, Vasudeva. He is His relative and he was His constant associate. Often Satyaki was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was a very fierce personality. When he saw that the Pandavas were mistreated by Duryodhana many a times he was very angry and he tried to just wage a war against the Kauravas, destroy them. And he was constantly with Krishna. In the battle of Kurukshetra he played a very, very important role. When Krishna went to make peace and Duryodhana was planning to arrest Krishna, Yuyudhana actually could make out they are trying to scheme some dubious plan, that they might hurt Krishna. So he actually left the assembly and he went and got the army ready, their army, the Yadu army ready at the doorway, just in case there was a need they were ready to attack.
So in this way we can see that Yuyudhana, how wonderful an associate he was of Krishna. Although he knew that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead he is so concerned about Krishna’s welfare. That is the nature of a devotee: although they know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead but they become very concerned about Him. Like if we don’t take care of Him then He will be inconvenienced. Like Mother Yashoda. She used to think that if she didn’t feed Krishna then Krishna will starve. Similarly, the devotees in the temple although they are serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they dress Krishna in a beautiful way. They cook for Krishna, thinking that the bhoga must be ready in time. And they cook it with all the care, concern and love that it must taste very nicely because Krishna is going to eat it.
So Prabhupada in the purport is pointing out, elaborating on that expression ‘lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva.’ Adhokshaja is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and he achieved, ‘lebhe’, the service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Prabhupada, elaborating on that point, he is pointing out that there are two types of spiritualists: brahmavadis and devotees. The brahmavadis they worship the Brahman aspect or the impersonal aspect of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they achieve a situation where they become liberated from the material bondage. Then they become absorbed in a kind of joy, in a kind of bliss called ‘brahmananda’, being situated in the impersonal aspect of the spiritual reality. But Parama Brahma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is situated in another kind of bliss. That bliss is called ‘premananda’: the joy of loving exchange. So brahmananda is an impersonal joy; the joy of being free from all material bondage. It’s a kind of ananda (joy, bliss). It’s being free from all material entanglement. Although it is ananda but this is very insignificant ananda. It is very insignificant bliss. Yes, according to material calculation it is something very big, something wonderful, something inconceivable. But Krishna premananda, to develop a loving relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is another kind of experience. That joy is far beyond brahmananda.

In Caitanya Caritamrta it has been described that compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is like a footprint of a cow’s hoof, the water in the footprint made by a calf’s hoof compared to an ocean. In the soft ground when the cows move, their footprints make an impression. Sometimes in monsoon time some water gets accumulated there. That is called ‘khaat udhaka.’ So compared to an ocean what is this? This is also water, a reservoir of water but does it have any comparison to an ocean of water, this hoof print of a cow? Similarly, compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is absolutely insignificant. And why? Because Krishna is anandamaya abhyasat, so He is the reservoir of all joy. And when one becomes connected to Krishna through loving exchange then he also experiences that joy that Krishna is experiencing out of that love. This loving potency, the potency that is responsible for creating that loving relationship is called hladini potency or pleasure giving potency.

So everybody is searching after joy. Everything that everybody does is for the sake of getting some pleasure, getting some joy, ananda. Whatever one does is for the sake of getting some pleasure. A child is playing with toys. Why does the child play with toys? To get some joy. He gets some pleasure, some joy out of it. Then he grows up and plays in the field, plays football. Why does he play football? You try to take him away from the field, he will be completely upset. Why? Because he is getting some joy. Then he grows up and then he plays another kind of game: gambling. Then he doesn’t play football, he gambles. Why does he gamble? Because he gets some joy out of it. Or he plays poker, or some sort of game. So in this way on the material platform people are trying to do something simply to get some joy. Why does one work so hard? People are working in an office or in a factory. Why? This is painful. Working in a factory or in an office, is it joyful? It’s not joyful. It’s very painful, but still, why does one undergo this painful experience? Manish, you are laughing. Why? Because he thinks that at the end of the month he will get some money and with that money he will do something that he likes to do, right?

So in this way, everybody whatever he is doing is for the sake of getting some joy. But then on the material platform what we realize is that there is no joy here. One may get so much money but still he doesn’t get what he wants. Then when one realizes that there is no enjoyment in the material nature then what he thinks? He either thinks that if he can get out of this miserable condition then he will become joyful. He realizes that the material condition is miserable and if he can get out of that miserable condition then he will become joyful. So that is the first step: let me get out of the material nature. There is some joy: “Now I don’t have to go to the factory. I don’t have to go to office. I don’t have to pay any tax. I don’t have to worry about the thieves. I don’t have to worry about the government. I don’t have to worry about the police. I don’t have to worry about the court. I don’t have to worry about my wife nagging.”

So, in this way they get out of the negative situation and that is kind of joy because there is no distress. To not have distress is a kind of joy, but is it real joy? Like, let us consider a graph. In a graph, what do you have? There is an axis to the graph. The left size of the axis is minus and the axis is zero. And the right side of the axis is plus. So if you are in a minus situation then if you can be free from the minus situation it is plus. You have three crores rupees in debt in the market. You are in anxiety: “Oh, how can I pay that money off?”  So when you pay the debt and you become zero, you come to the situation of zero then some relief, “Okay, I don’t have any more debts”, but still it may be cessation from minus and coming to a zero but zero is not the goal of one’s existence. Will anybody be happy if he doesn’t have any money in his pocket? Will you be happy if you don’t have any money in the pocket? But not to have any money in your pocket is better than having minus, debts in the market. But then what happens? Then you start earning money, now you don’t have any debts. So now whatever you earn that is plus, that is added to your bank account.

So material nature is like the negative side of the graph. To get out of the material nature and to become situated in that Brahman realization stage is like being in the zero situation. No more debts. No minus. It’s now zero but the plus is the situation of being in the spiritual state of ecstasy. There it is real joy, but how does one get into the plus? But renunciation, by negation, by giving up one can come to the zero situation but to go into the positive situation, the plus situation, one must develop his loving relationship with Krishna.

These are the three aspects: karma, jnana [knowledge] and bhakti. Karma is keeping you in the negative situation. You are acting on the material platform and you are getting the reactions of your actions. So it is tying you down to the material nature and you are going through different experiences, sometimes pleasant, sometimes unpleasant experiences in the material nature. Then through jnana when you realize how miserable this material existence is, a person who is not in jnana, a person who is ajnani, what does he think? What is his state of existence or state of consciousness? What is an ajnani’s state of existence? “I will enjoy in the material nature.” That is an ajnani. “Material nature is a place of enjoyment”, that is ajnana. But this material nature is a place of suffering, that is the first stage of knowledge (jnana), spiritual knowledge in that sense. And when one acts with that understanding, it is a place of suffering, does anybody want to be in a place of suffering? Nobody wants to be in a place of suffering. So when one is in a place of suffering, what does he want to do? He wants to get out of that suffering condition. If you know that if you stay in some place, somebody will come and start beating you up with a stick, what will you do? Will you stay there or immediately run away? Whether you have to break the window or whether you have to scale the wall you will try to get out of that place. So similarly when one is situated in knowledge his condition, his consideration is to get out of this miserable condition. But getting out of the miserable condition where does one come to? He comes to a situation of not suffering, not minus. What is not minus, not minus, not plus? Zero, the axis of the graph.

And then, how does one go into the plus situation? What is the condition for going to the plus, the region of the plus, the positive side? What is the condition? How does one get into the plus situation? Yes? [audience member: when we chant the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra] Yes, what does it mean? [Audience member: (translation from Hindi) It means that we always remember the Holy Names of the Lord] Okay, so to go to the plus situation is, Medha? [Devotee: Guru Maharaja, by developing our loving relation with Krishna] Very good. By developing a loving relationship with Krishna one can go to the plus situation, the positive side. You are also correct. Chanting Hare Krishna is the process of developing that love. So the main consideration is how to develop love for Krishna. And when we develop our love for Krishna, the more we develop our love for Krishna the more we go into the positive side. So that is what Prabhupada is actually pointing out in the purport.

Like, a jiva by his own, a jiva when he becomes situated in the Brahman situation he is out of the material nature and he is in his spiritual situation. Brahman means spiritual. Are we material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] We are spiritual. The body is material but are we this body? No, what are we? [audience: the soul] The soul, and is the soul material? [audience: no] What is the soul? [audience: spiritual] Very good. So you are? [audience: spiritual] Spiritual, okay. So we are spiritual but now, are we spiritual? If we look at ourselves, are you material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] A mosquito comes and you say, “Oh, mosquito is biting me.” So biting who? Is the mosquito biting the soul or the body? [audience: the body] Then why you are saying, “The mosquito is biting me?” So who is that ‘me’? This body! Where is my consciousness? In the body. So where I am? Am I in the spiritual constitution or material constitution? [audience: material constitution] Material constitution. So this material constitution means suffering condition. So to get out of this suffering condition is to become situated in our spiritual identity. So that preliminary stage of spiritual situation is Brahman realization. Aham Brahmasmi. Aham Brahmasmi means I am spiritual, I am not material. But when I become situated in my spiritual activity then I am properly situated in my spiritual identity. If I realize that I am spiritual but I am not spiritually active then am I really spiritual? Because a living entity has to be active. Our existence is synonymous to activities. Now the consideration is, what is the spiritual activity? What is the spiritual activity? Yes, Radharani? [devotee: to serve Krishna] The spiritual activity is to serve Krishna. And what is this service to Krishna called? [devotee: bhakti] Devotional service, bhakti. Clear? What you’re going to do? Aspire for Brahman realization or directly become engaged in devotional service? Now, that is the wonderful thing about devotional service, that even when we are in the material nature we can become engaged in devotional service. Now when you are engaged in devotional service, are you in the material nature or in the spiritual nature? [audience: spiritual nature] Because this devotional service is spiritual activity. So in this way, in spite of being in the material nature we can become spiritually situated. That is just by directly being engaged in service to Krishna.

Now, let us consider Satyaki or Yuyudhana. Where was Yuyudhana? What was Yuyudhana doing all the time? As I mentioned at the beginning of the class, what was he doing? He was driving Krishna’s chariot. He was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was Krishna’s personal secretary, personal servant. He was Krishna’s bodyguard, body guard in the sense he is going with Krishna and if somebody tries to do something, he says, “Come on, let’s see. You are trying to harm Krishna?” And who is he? He is an expert warrior. He is trained personally by Arjuna. He learned the art of weaponry by Arjuna. And a very dear friend of Krishna, a well wisher of the Pandavas. So we can see what is Satyaki’s situation, Yuyudhana? Is he situated at the spiritual platform or the material platform? [audience: spiritual platform] That is what is meant by being situated, Adhokshaja situation, transcendental situation, beyond this material nature in the absolute, spiritual reality.

There is one incidence, let me see. I am just going back to Mahabharata. You want to hear Mahabharata? [audience: yes!] Okay.
“So the Pandavas were banished to the forest.”
Do you remember the Pandavas’ situation? The Pandavas got their kingdom. Actually it was decided, Bhishma mediated and decided that half of the kingdom should be given to them. Prior to that Duryodhana tried to burn them in the house of shellac but the Pandavas with the help of Vidura escaped. Vidura told about Duryodhana’s treacherous plan, so they dug a tunnel out of the house, set the house on fire and escaped. But they were hiding. They were just travelling around as brahmanas, wandering brahmanas. And then at that time they got the news that Draupadi was going to select her husband. Being advised by Vyasadeva they went to that place, kingdom of Drupada, Pancala. Draupadi was the most beautiful lady of that time, most celebrated beauty of that time. And she was Yajnaseni: she was not born in an ordinary way; she appeared from a sacrificial fire. From the fire she appeared. So in that, there was a condition that one has to hit the target, a very, very difficult target to hit. Making the arrow go through a moving wheel with a hole and had to hit the eye of the fish. And that also not looking up, looking down on the reflection on a pot of water. No one succeeded, no one could do that.

Then when none of the kshatriyas could do that, could hit the target, so Drishtadyumna, Draupadi’s brother, invited that if any brahmana would like to do that, like to give it a try. So at that time Arjuna, being provoked by Krishna, did that. He stood up. But everyone thought that this brahmana has become crazy. When kshatriyas could not hit that mark, this brahmana, how he is going to do that? They started to insult. Some started to say that, “Seeing the beauty of Draupadi this character has gone crazy.” And some said, “Well, let him. If he wants to try, what’s the harm? The brahmanas have been invited and after all, the brahmanas are better than the kshatriyas.” Finally when Arjuna hit the mark and won Draupadi a big fight ensued, and in that fight Arjuna and Bhima defeated all the assembled kshatriyas. And then Drupada sent his spies to find out who these boys were and invited them and he recognized that these are the Pandavas. So everyone was very happy that the Pandavas were still alive, along with Kunti whom they thought were dead.

So then Bhishma told Dhrtarashtra, “Call them back.” Bhishma appealed to Dhrtarashtra that, “Give them their share of the kingdom. You divide the kingdom into two. Keep one half for your sons and give the other half [to them].” So Dhrtarashtra gave the barren half of the land, the part of the land that was barren, no good, and for his sons he kept Hastinapura, the capital and the good part of the kingdom. But the Pandavas, due to their piety and due to their good nature, due to their wonderful qualities, that part which was, they established the capital in a place called Indraprastha and that became even more prosperous than the other half. Then they organized a Rajasuya yajna, a sacrifice to establish their sovereignty over all other kings. And the consideration was that Jarasandha has already captured so many kings and Jarasandha is extremely powerful and Jarasandha is against the Pandavas. Jarasandha would line against the Pandavas. So in order to successfully execute the Rajasuya yajna they have to kill Jarasandha first. That was Krishna’s advice. So Krishna came and Krishna told that. Yudhisthira asked that, “How to kill Jarasandha?” And Krishna said that, “We, three of us will go. Arjuna, Bhima and Myself. And then Bhima will challenge him in a wrestling bout and in that wrestling bout he should defeat Jarasandha.”
But Jarasandha also was kind of immortal because Jarasandha was born in a very special way. His father didn’t have any son. He had two wives and he was equally disposed to these two wives and none of them could bear him a child. He found out that one sage named Candakaushika was in the vicinity and he approached that very exalted saintly personality. He begged him to bless him to have a child. So Candakaushika gave him a mango. He was sitting under a mango tree and when the king was talking to him, just a mango fell from the tree and he gave the mango to the king and said that, “You’ll have a child.” So since the king was equally disposed to both his wives, he gave that one half of the mango to one wife and the other half to the other wife. Both of them became pregnant and in due course gave birth to half of a child, a dead half of a child. So what is the use of this half of a, one half came out from one womb, the other half came from the other womb. So they threw away the child, the dead [child]. At night there was a witch, a demoness called Jara, she came across this flesh of the baby. Her business was to eat babies’ blood and flesh so she was very happy to see this dead baby, a dead body is lying. She picked them up, those two pieces and while she was carrying she placed it together and the child became alive and started to cry. And it happened near the king’s palace so hearing the child’s cry everybody came out of the house and then Jara realized that this is actually the king’s child. So she felt that, “After all, I live in the king’s kingdom so I should do him some favor.” So she assumed the form of a beautiful woman and offered the child to the king and she told what actually happened. The king was very happy and because it was sandha, joined by Jara, therefore the king named the baby after her, after that witch, after that demoness, rakshasi Jara and named him as Jarasandha.

So Krishna told, “The only way Jarasandha can die is if his body is split into two.” So Bhima went and fought, challenged him in a wrestling match. Jarasandha asked them, they appeared their as brahmanas, and Jarasandha could recognize them. He said that, “I can see that you are not brahmanas. Why did you come like this, hiding your identity? And why did you also come from the backdoor?” Then Krishna actually gave some reasons that this was justified and He pointed out that about coming from the backdoor, He said, “When you go to a friend’s house you go through the front door and when you go to an enemy’s house you go through the backdoor.” Then Jarasandha asked, “Why are you considering me to be your enemy? I didn’t do any harm to you.” Then Krishna said that, “You have arrested all these kings and that’s why we consider you to be an enemy. This is an inappropriate act to human society. You have captivated them and you want to slaughter them in your sacrifice. So that’s why we are challenging you to a fight.” And it was decided that Jarasandha would pick one of them and Jarasandha selected Bhima. They fought for, I think for about eighteen days, non-stop. For eighteen days they were wrestling and both were extremely powerful. But eventually Jarasandha started losing his strength. So then Bhima picked him up and started to roll him over his head and he rolled him so many times he became unconscious. Then Bhima put him on the ground, with his feet he held on to one leg and with his hands he just tore off the other half of the body and that’s how Jarasandha was killed.

So after killing Jarasandha they released all the eighty six kings and those kings became very submissive to them. And after that Rajasuya yajna was performed, and after the successful completion of the Rajasuya yajna, in that Rajasuya probably you remember, Sishupala started to insult Krishna and at that time Krishna severed his head. Then they were considering that such an act was performed in a sacrifice, whether it marks any auspiciousness. And Vyasadeva pointed out that, “Yes, the result of this act will fructify after thirteen years.” And during this Rajasuya yajna, when Duryodhana came and saw this palace of the Pandavas and the opulence of the Pandavas, he became very envious. So his uncle, Shakuni, advised him to invite Yudhisthira Maharaja in a game of dice and defeat him and take everything away from him. And as a result of that they lost everything and had to go to the forest for twelve years. And the condition was that the thirteenth year they will stay incognito and if anybody recognizes them, any one of them, then this condition will repeat, another twelve years of forest, exile in the forest.

So anyway, this is how the Pandavas were sent to the forest and their kingdom was taken away. Although they became the ruler of the earth planet after performing Rajasuya yajna, they lost everything. So that was what I was saying, at that time Satyaki actually was planning to wage a war against Duryodhana. Anyway, maybe I can read next time. Okay, you want? [laughs]

“Krishna went to the Kamyaka forest to see the Pandavas. With Him went Drishtadyumna, Dhristaketu, the king of the Cedis and Kekaya brothers, famed the world over for their bravery. With Krishna went all the heroes of the Vrishni house. They were shocked to see the condition of the Pandavas and their queen. They sat round Yudhisthira. Krishna said, “The earth has become thirsty for blood. She will drink the blood of the sinners; Duryodhana, Radheya, Shakuni and Dushasana. We are all here. All the kings of the world are shocked at what has happened. Yudhisthira, why should you live in the forest because they asked you to? It was not a fair game, nor was it right on their part to impose this condition on you. Let us, all of us march against the city of Hastinapura. I have brought My army with Me, so have these heroes. The entire Bharatavarsha is on your side. We can vanquish the Kauravas easily.” Yudhisthira said, “No, Krishna. I have done a wrong thing and this exile is the expiation for it. I have to go through that and with me my brothers and my beloved queen. They have to suffer for what I did. I would give anything to recall the past but I cannot. Fate is inexorable. I have to suffer. The great Vyasa foretold me about this spell of bad luck when I was in Indraprastha. I have to refuse Your offer, Krishna. Please forgive me.” Yudhisthira sat silent.”

[HH BCS] Now here is the difference between Yudhisthira and Arjuna. Why Arjuna is considered to be a greater devotee? Because Arjuna just did whatever Krishna told him, whereas Yudhisthira was not listening to Krishna. Yudhisthira was not fully surrendered to Krishna. He was considering the moral consideration, the ethical consideration, what is right, what is wrong. What is dharma, what is the course according to dharma? But that’s why we find in Bhagavad Gita the instruction sarva-dharman parityaja.[Bg 18.66] Yudhisthira could not take that condition, sarva-dharman parityaja. He had the consideration of relative dharma but what is the ultimate dharma? To surrender unto Krishna and follow His instructions is the ultimate dharma. So here Krishna is telling that, “I have come with My army and all these kings have come so let’s attack the Kauravas and defeat them and reinstate you in your kingdom.” But Yudhisthira said no: that is he is not completely surrendered to Krishna. So what do we learn from that? Should we follow Yudhisthira Maharaja or Arjuna? [audience: Arjuna] Our choice is clear but at that time Yudhisthira Maharaja had another consideration because Krishna did not speak Bhagavad-Gita as yet. And also another thing is, Krishna didn’t speak Bhagavad-Gita to Yudhisthira Maharaja. He spoke Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna. So Yudhisthira Maharaja did not hear that instruction at that time, sarva-dharman parityaja mam ekam sharanam vraja.

[Continues reading from Mahabharata]
“Krishna was terribly angry with the Kauravas. The anger of Krishna was as terrible as that of Rudra at the time of destruction of the asuras. Arjuna tried to pacify his dearest friend. Arjuna tried to remove the angry frown from the charming face of Krishna. Krishna said, “Yudhisthira, your life and Mine are bound up in each other. You are mine and I am yours. We belong to each other. No one can separate you from Me. Those who love you are those who love Me. Your enemies are My enemies. I will not rest until I destroy My enemies. They will perish, if not now, later. Since you are bent on following the conditions to the letter but it is all a question of time. I will make this earth wet with the blood of these blasted kshatriyas. I will then perform the coronation of the best of men. This I swear I will do. Yes, I swear I will do.”

When she saw her dear Krishna and her beloved brother Drishtadyumna the grief of Draupadi became intense. All the sorrow she had suffered on that memorable day, all the insults which had been hurled at her by Radheya, Duryodhana and Dushasana became fresh again. She sobbed as though her heart would break. The anger of Krishna against the Kauravas was such a contrast to the patience of Yudhisthira that it gave her immense comfort. She looked at Krishna, her eyes full of glistening tears. She said, “Krishna, look at me. I am the favored queen of the five great Pandavas reputed to be the greatest heroes in the world. I am the sister of Drishtadyumna, the fire born. I am the dear friend of Krishna and yet this has happened to me. They insulted me, Krishna. They dragged me to the court and, Krishna, they said I was the slave of those beasts. Krishna, they said such awful things. The old dotted Bhishma and Dhrtarashtra were there but they did nothing to prevent this outrage. They did nothing and they said nothing. I will tell you about these husbands of mine. What is the use of Bhima killing a hundred rakshasas? What if Arjuna fought with the great Indra himself? What is the use of the conquest of Nakula and Sahadeva? What do I care if Yudhisthira is called the sole monarch of this earth since he has performed the Rajasuya? When my hair purified by the sacred waters during the Rajasuya, when this my hair was touched by Dushasana how could they have stood calm? Dushasana tried to disrobe me. These men were silent. Can anything be more horrible than that? If it had not been for your infinite kindness I would have been disrobed completely and still these husbands of mine would have been silent. Yudhisthira talks glibly about dharma but isn’t it the highest dharma of the husband to protect his wife when she is being insulted? Should they not rescue the wife from a strong man who is getting ready to harass her as no other woman has been harassed before? Even if it had been just any woman they should have leaped to her rescue, as it is written down in the book of rules. They call themselves kshatriyas and they do not know the meaning of the word. But chivalry is dead in the hearts of men. They are not men.”

Draupadi’s tears flowed without restraint. She could not speak no more. Krishna took her face in His hands. With His fingers he tenderly wiped away her tears, nor were His own eyes dry. He tried to comfort her. He said, “Wait a little longer, Draupadi. Your tears will not be in vain. The women of the Kuru house will weep even as you are weeping now. When Arjuna’s arrows quench their thirst in the blood of Radheya they will weep. When Bhima’s hands are red with the blood of Dushasana they will weep. When that sinful Duryodhana lies on the battlefield with his thigh broken by Bhima they will weep. I promise to you most solemnly that all these things will happen. Nothing can stop Me, nothing. Listen to My oath. The heavens may fall from their height, the snowy peaks of Himavan may slip and fall, the seas may dry up, the earth may shiver into millions of flinders but the words of Krishna will never be vain, empty words. You will see all the Kauravas dead. Do not cry, my dear sister, do not cry.”

Draupadi’s frenzied sobbing abated slowly after hearing the words of Krishna. He said, “Yudhisthira, if I had been at Dwaraka at that time of the tragedy I would have heard about it and I would have hurried to Hastinapura uninvited. I would have stopped this game of dice. I would have made Bhishma and Dhrtarashtra take steps to avert this crime. But I had gone away to Shalva. I had to fight with Shalva and Sobha. Sobha was a friend of Sishupala. To avenge the death of his friend he harassed the people of Dwaraka when I was away in Indraprastha. I went to fight with them. After killing them I hurried back to Dwaraka. The omens were all pointed to some calamity. There in Dwaraka I heard about the injustice done to you. I came here to see you and talk to you about it. I thought that I would coax you to fight for your kingdom. You have now spent thirteen days in the forest. According to some rule a day means a year. So Yudhisthira, you will not be breaking your promise if you fight now. What do you say? You will not break your promise if you fight now. What do you say?”

Yudhisthira smiled at Krishna and said nothing. Krishna smiled too and said, “It will be as you wish. But their end is near. We will see you king very soon. I’ll place the crown on your head with these hands of Mine. You can be sure of that.” Krishna took leave of all of them one by one. Drishtadyumna bade farewell to his sister and his brothers-in-law. He embraced his dear friend Bhima. The Kekaya brothers with Dhristaketu took leave of the Pandavas. They all went away leaving the Pandavas to ponder on their encouraging words and the solemn oath of Krishna.”

[HH BCS:] In one hand we can see that if Yudhisthira Maharaja listened to Krishna’s words then Mahabharata wouldn’t have happened. The history would have been something else. But anyway, we also have to understand that this is Krishna’s plan. This is Krishna’s arrangement, Krishna’s divine arrangement. Anyway, we are happy that we have Mahabharata. Isn’t it exciting? So much, that every page of Mahabharata actually churns the emotions of the heart. There will never be a literature like this in this world. And it is not a fiction, it’s factual. And facts are stranger than fictions. Mahabharata is the proof.

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Does anybody have any question?
There are so many questions! Yeah?

Devotee: I have two questions. The first one is although devotees know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead they feel concerned for Krishna. So similarly even we execute devotional service we feel in spite of [inaudible] still we feel concerned for devotees. For example Srila Prabhupada wanted to go on Govardhana parikrama towards the end of his leela, but although that was his instruction devotees were concerned and they had to find a way how to avert that situation. So, how to find the balance between the concern and following the instructions?
BCS: You see, that concern is an expression of love. It cannot be avoided. It’s inevitable. Like for example, say you are with your friend and your friend is very strong and powerful. Somebody comes to attack your friend. Then do you just leave your friend there and say, “Okay, protect yourself?” Or you just roll up your sleeves and face those people? Although your friend is much stronger, why do you do that? [devotee: love] Because of love! Because of your love you feel like protecting that person although he may be much stronger than you. So that is the feeling of a devotee. Although they know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead but he thinks that, “With my might I will defend Him. I’ll serve Krishna.” Right? So that is the difference between love and knowledge. Those who are in knowledge they will say, “Oh, Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Let me just sit down. He will take care of Himself.” That’s the difference between the yogis and the devotees. Yogis are meditating and thinking, “Oh, Krishna can take care of Himself.” Even when the demons come they are sitting there. But the devotees, either they stand up against the demon or they become afraid of the demon and run to Krishna. “Krishna! Krishna! Do something about it!” So the concern here for the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an expression of love although they know He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Devotee: So sometimes when we are in the situation where we might have to, take the example of Srila Prabhupada, he wanted to go for Govardhana parikrama. So the instructions have still to be followed. You cannot disobey the instructions. But then we have concerns, how do we…
BCS: Well, since you brought up that Govardhana parikrama, Prabhupada’s desire, some of us did not succumb to that instruction of Srila Prabhupada. And Prabhupada finally accepted that because he saw the love and love prevailed.

Devotee:  Another question.
BCS: Okay.
Devotee: You said how we have to develop our love for Krishna, so is it that our love for Krishna will develop only when we reach the raganuga platform or even in the vaidhi stage we do have love for Krishna, a sense of love for Krishna?
BCS: See, the love also has two different stages: interrupted love and uninterrupted love. So when other considerations are there then the love is interrupted. So on vaidhi platform or until when one reaches perfection the love is interrupted, but on the perfected platform it is uninterrupted and unconditional, ahaituki apratihata.
Devotee: Even on vaidhi platform there is love?
BCS: Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, when the devotees are dressing the Lord, don’t they feel that, when they are cooking for the Lord. Gradually it will develop as they keep on practicing devotional service, vaidhi bhakti. It’ll increase. Initially there may not be anything, any feeling. “Oh, the temple president or the head pujari told me to cook so therefore I am cooking.” But then as it continues, as it develops, as he makes advancement the love will develop. Then the consideration won’t be, “Because I have been told to cook, that’s why I am cooking”, but, “Because I love Krishna that’s why I am cooking.”

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, what is the specialty of that dice that if Shakuni spoke of six then definitely six will come?
BCS: Huh? What’s that?
Devotee: What is the specialty of the dice that he [inaudible]
BCS: Shakuni was a wizard. In a game of dice he had this expertise. How did he get that expertise? I don’t know. Yes, Radharani?

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, you mentioned that Vyasadeva said that because Sishupala’s head was severed at the yajna it will bring inauspiciousness and the Pandavas will have to suffer for that.
BCS: Because at that time inauspicious signs started to show up. But Vyasadeva said that the result will come after thirteen years.
Devotee: The question is if the Supreme Personality of Godhead killed someone so how is that inauspicious?
BCS: Well, the thing is, He acts in a certain way and you know, there is a material reaction also that falls in, in a line with that. This is another thing, when the Supreme Personality of Godhead performs His pastimes on this planet, He doesn’t always act as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He also follows the rules of this material nature. Like, when He appears auspicious signs appear. When Krishna appeared all the stars and planets came into the most perfect conjunction. So in this way there are inauspicious signs also displayed to indicate certain inauspicious reaction. Like that.
Devotee: In relation to Krishnarcana prabhu’s question, I asked you the same question many, many years ago that how we can ascertain that what we do is just out of duty or out of love, and you told me very nicely and I remember till this day, that when we do something out of duty we think that, “Oh, Krishna’s offering has to be ready by twelve”, and that if we have the attitude that Krishna is hungry and we have to prepare His food by twelve,  that is devotional service, that is love.
BCS: Okay, thank you.

Devotee: [inaudible]
BCS: Yeah, so that’s why it has been time and time again pointed out that the course of dharma is very intricate. It is very difficult to figure out what is…that is what Bhishma was actually confused about. Although he was a very just and noble man but he didn’t know what was right and at that time he couldn’t figure out what should be done. Like, in one hand there is a game of dice, there was a consideration of their conditions that was laid during the game, and they lost and, you know, all that, and it’s true. Like Draupadi, she harbored some very strong feelings against Bhishma, that he was a noble man, so virtuous, so righteous, but where was his nobility when I was being insulted? He was just sitting like an idiot in the middle of the assembly.
Devotee: [inaudible]

BCS: Yes, Sunita?
Devotee: Guru Maharaja, Bhishma’s non action at the time Draupadi was being disrobed, can it be said his allegiance to the kingdom or to Dhrtarashtra came in the way and that’s why he did not act. So in a way it was his selfishness which stopped him from doing that, can we say that?
BCS: Well, there is another way of looking at it. When Bhishma was lying on the bed of arrows then the Pandavas came along with Krishna, just before he was about to leave, and Bhishma started to instruct Yudhisthira Maharaja on the principles of dharma, varnashrama dharma. At that time Bhishma noticed there was a smile on Draupadi’s face, kind of a smile of resentment. So he asked Draupadi why she was smiling in that way, and Draupadi said, “Where was your wisdom when I was being disrobed in front of you in that assembly?” Then Bhishma said, “You see, at that time because I was eating the food of the Kauravas my consciousness became affected because I was eating their food. But today that blood has been drained out of my body. So now my consciousness has become purified.” This also shows how one’s consciousness becomes affected in such a subtle way as through food. And that’s why we have to be very careful who cooks, what kind of food we are eating, because it does affect our consciousness.

Devotee: Can you tell us something about Kalki avatara?
BCS: Yeah. Kalki avatara will come at the end of the Kali Yuga. The duration of Kali Yuga is 432.000 years, out of that only five thousand years have gone by. So there are still 427.000 years left. And at that time, say 427.000 years from now, Krishna will appear as Kalki avatara. He will appear as the son of a brahmana called Vishnuyasha, in a place called SB 3.1.31
10th April 2008, ISKCON Ujjain India
Audio reference:
http://audio.iskcondesiretree.info/index.php?q=f&f=%2F02_-_ISKCON_Swamis%2FISKCON_Swamis_-_A_to_C%2FHis_Holiness_Bhakti_Caru_Swami%2FSrimad_Bhagavatam%2FCanto-03\
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

Srimad Bhagavatam, third Canto, chapter one, text thirty one. This chapter is entitled as ‘Questions By Vidura.’
kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam

Synonyms:
kshemam — all good; sah — he; kaccit — whether; yuyudhanah — Satyaki; aste — is there; yah — one who; phalgunat — from Arjuna; labdha — has achieved; dhanuh-rahasyah — one who understands the intricacies of military art; lebhe — also achieved; anjasa — summarily; adhokshaja — of the Transcendence; sevaya — by service; eva — certainly; gatim — destination; tadiyam — transcendental; yatibhih — by great renouncers; durapam — very difficult to achieve.

Translation:
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

Purport:
The destination of transcendence is to become the personal associate of the Personality of Godhead, who is known as adhokshaja, He who is beyond the reach of the senses. The renouncers of the world, the sannyasis, give up all worldly connections, namely, family, wife, children, friends, home, wealth — everything — to attain the transcendental bliss of Brahman happiness. But adhokshaja happiness is beyond Brahman happiness. The empiric philosophers enjoy a transcendental quality of bliss by philosophical speculation on the Supreme Truth, but beyond that pleasure is the pleasure enjoyed by Brahman in His eternal form of the Personality of Godhead. Brahman bliss is enjoyed by living entities after liberation from material bondage. But Parabrahman, the Personality of Godhead, enjoys eternally a bliss of His own potency, which is called the hladini potency. The empiric philosopher who studies Brahman by negation of the external features has not yet learned the quality of the hladini potency of Brahman. Out of many potencies of the Omnipotent, there are three features of His internal potency — namely samvit, sandhini and hladini. And in spite of their strict adherence to the principles of yama, niyama, asana, dhyana, dharana and pranayama, the great yogis and jnanis are unable to enter into the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is, however, easily realized by the devotees of the Lord by dint of devotional service. Yuyudhana achieved this stage of life, just as he achieved expert knowledge in military science from Arjuna. Thus his life was successful to the fullest extent from both the material and spiritual angles of vision. That is the way of devotional service to the Lord.
[End of Purport]
kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

So Yuyudhana or Satyaki is an eternal associate of Krishna, Vasudeva. He is His relative and he was His constant associate. Often Satyaki was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was a very fierce personality. When he saw that the Pandavas were mistreated by Duryodhana many a times he was very angry and he tried to just wage a war against the Kauravas, destroy them. And he was constantly with Krishna. In the battle of Kurukshetra he played a very, very important role. When Krishna went to make peace and Duryodhana was planning to arrest Krishna, Yuyudhana actually could make out they are trying to scheme some dubious plan, that they might hurt Krishna. So he actually left the assembly and he went and got the army ready, their army, the Yadu army ready at the doorway, just in case there was a need they were ready to attack.
So in this way we can see that Yuyudhana, how wonderful an associate he was of Krishna. Although he knew that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead he is so concerned about Krishna’s welfare. That is the nature of a devotee: although they know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead but they become very concerned about Him. Like if we don’t take care of Him then He will be inconvenienced. Like Mother Yashoda. She used to think that if she didn’t feed Krishna then Krishna will starve. Similarly, the devotees in the temple although they are serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they dress Krishna in a beautiful way. They cook for Krishna, thinking that the bhoga must be ready in time. And they cook it with all the care, concern and love that it must taste very nicely because Krishna is going to eat it.
So Prabhupada in the purport is pointing out, elaborating on that expression ‘lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva.’ Adhokshaja is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and he achieved, ‘lebhe’, the service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Prabhupada, elaborating on that point, he is pointing out that there are two types of spiritualists: brahmavadis and devotees. The brahmavadis they worship the Brahman aspect or the impersonal aspect of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they achieve a situation where they become liberated from the material bondage. Then they become absorbed in a kind of joy, in a kind of bliss called ‘brahmananda’, being situated in the impersonal aspect of the spiritual reality. But Parama Brahma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is situated in another kind of bliss. That bliss is called ‘premananda’: the joy of loving exchange. So brahmananda is an impersonal joy; the joy of being free from all material bondage. It’s a kind of ananda (joy, bliss). It’s being free from all material entanglement. Although it is ananda but this is very insignificant ananda. It is very insignificant bliss. Yes, according to material calculation it is something very big, something wonderful, something inconceivable. But Krishna premananda, to develop a loving relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is another kind of experience. That joy is far beyond brahmananda.

In Caitanya Caritamrta it has been described that compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is like a footprint of a cow’s hoof, the water in the footprint made by a calf’s hoof compared to an ocean. In the soft ground when the cows move, their footprints make an impression. Sometimes in monsoon time some water gets accumulated there. That is called ‘khaat udhaka.’ So compared to an ocean what is this? This is also water, a reservoir of water but does it have any comparison to an ocean of water, this hoof print of a cow? Similarly, compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is absolutely insignificant. And why? Because Krishna is anandamaya abhyasat, so He is the reservoir of all joy. And when one becomes connected to Krishna through loving exchange then he also experiences that joy that Krishna is experiencing out of that love. This loving potency, the potency that is responsible for creating that loving relationship is called hladini potency or pleasure giving potency.

So everybody is searching after joy. Everything that everybody does is for the sake of getting some pleasure, getting some joy, ananda. Whatever one does is for the sake of getting some pleasure. A child is playing with toys. Why does the child play with toys? To get some joy. He gets some pleasure, some joy out of it. Then he grows up and plays in the field, plays football. Why does he play football? You try to take him away from the field, he will be completely upset. Why? Because he is getting some joy. Then he grows up and then he plays another kind of game: gambling. Then he doesn’t play football, he gambles. Why does he gamble? Because he gets some joy out of it. Or he plays poker, or some sort of game. So in this way on the material platform people are trying to do something simply to get some joy. Why does one work so hard? People are working in an office or in a factory. Why? This is painful. Working in a factory or in an office, is it joyful? It’s not joyful. It’s very painful, but still, why does one undergo this painful experience? Manish, you are laughing. Why? Because he thinks that at the end of the month he will get some money and with that money he will do something that he likes to do, right?

So in this way, everybody whatever he is doing is for the sake of getting some joy. But then on the material platform what we realize is that there is no joy here. One may get so much money but still he doesn’t get what he wants. Then when one realizes that there is no enjoyment in the material nature then what he thinks? He either thinks that if he can get out of this miserable condition then he will become joyful. He realizes that the material condition is miserable and if he can get out of that miserable condition then he will become joyful. So that is the first step: let me get out of the material nature. There is some joy: “Now I don’t have to go to the factory. I don’t have to go to office. I don’t have to pay any tax. I don’t have to worry about the thieves. I don’t have to worry about the government. I don’t have to worry about the police. I don’t have to worry about the court. I don’t have to worry about my wife nagging.”

So, in this way they get out of the negative situation and that is kind of joy because there is no distress. To not have distress is a kind of joy, but is it real joy? Like, let us consider a graph. In a graph, what do you have? There is an axis to the graph. The left size of the axis is minus and the axis is zero. And the right side of the axis is plus. So if you are in a minus situation then if you can be free from the minus situation it is plus. You have three crores rupees in debt in the market. You are in anxiety: “Oh, how can I pay that money off?”  So when you pay the debt and you become zero, you come to the situation of zero then some relief, “Okay, I don’t have any more debts”, but still it may be cessation from minus and coming to a zero but zero is not the goal of one’s existence. Will anybody be happy if he doesn’t have any money in his pocket? Will you be happy if you don’t have any money in the pocket? But not to have any money in your pocket is better than having minus, debts in the market. But then what happens? Then you start earning money, now you don’t have any debts. So now whatever you earn that is plus, that is added to your bank account.

So material nature is like the negative side of the graph. To get out of the material nature and to become situated in that Brahman realization stage is like being in the zero situation. No more debts. No minus. It’s now zero but the plus is the situation of being in the spiritual state of ecstasy. There it is real joy, but how does one get into the plus? But renunciation, by negation, by giving up one can come to the zero situation but to go into the positive situation, the plus situation, one must develop his loving relationship with Krishna.

These are the three aspects: karma, jnana [knowledge] and bhakti. Karma is keeping you in the negative situation. You are acting on the material platform and you are getting the reactions of your actions. So it is tying you down to the material nature and you are going through different experiences, sometimes pleasant, sometimes unpleasant experiences in the material nature. Then through jnana when you realize how miserable this material existence is, a person who is not in jnana, a person who is ajnani, what does he think? What is his state of existence or state of consciousness? What is an ajnani’s state of existence? “I will enjoy in the material nature.” That is an ajnani. “Material nature is a place of enjoyment”, that is ajnana. But this material nature is a place of suffering, that is the first stage of knowledge (jnana), spiritual knowledge in that sense. And when one acts with that understanding, it is a place of suffering, does anybody want to be in a place of suffering? Nobody wants to be in a place of suffering. So when one is in a place of suffering, what does he want to do? He wants to get out of that suffering condition. If you know that if you stay in some place, somebody will come and start beating you up with a stick, what will you do? Will you stay there or immediately run away? Whether you have to break the window or whether you have to scale the wall you will try to get out of that place. So similarly when one is situated in knowledge his condition, his consideration is to get out of this miserable condition. But getting out of the miserable condition where does one come to? He comes to a situation of not suffering, not minus. What is not minus, not minus, not plus? Zero, the axis of the graph.

And then, how does one go into the plus situation? What is the condition for going to the plus, the region of the plus, the positive side? What is the condition? How does one get into the plus situation? Yes? [audience member: when we chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra] Yes, what does it mean? [Audience member: (translation from Hindi) It means that we always remember the Holy Names of the Lord] Okay, so to go to the plus situation is, Medha? [Devotee: Guru Maharaja, by developing our loving relation with Krishna] Very good. By developing a loving relationship with Krishna one can go to the plus situation, the positive side. You are also correct. Chanting Hare Krishna is the process of developing that love. So the main consideration is how to develop love for Krishna. And when we develop our love for Krishna, the more we develop our love for Krishna the more we go into the positive side. So that is what Prabhupada is actually pointing out in the purport.

Like, a jiva by his own, a jiva when he becomes situated in the Brahman situation he is out of the material nature and he is in his spiritual situation. Brahman means spiritual. Are we material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] We are spiritual. The body is material but are we this body? No, what are we? [audience: the soul] The soul, and is the soul material? [audience: no] What is the soul? [audience: spiritual] Very good. So you are? [audience: spiritual] Spiritual, okay. So we are spiritual but now, are we spiritual? If we look at ourselves, are you material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] A mosquito comes and you say, “Oh, mosquito is biting me.” So biting who? Is the mosquito biting the soul or the body? [audience: the body] Then why you are saying, “The mosquito is biting me?” So who is that ‘me’? This body! Where is my consciousness? In the body. So where I am? Am I in the spiritual constitution or material constitution? [audience: material constitution] Material constitution. So this material constitution means suffering condition. So to get out of this suffering condition is to become situated in our spiritual identity. So that preliminary stage of spiritual situation is Brahman realization. Aham Brahmasmi. Aham Brahmasmi means I am spiritual, I am not material. But when I become situated in my spiritual activity then I am properly situated in my spiritual identity. If I realize that I am spiritual but I am not spiritually active then am I really spiritual? Because a living entity has to be active. Our existence is synonymous to activities. Now the consideration is, what is the spiritual activity? What is the spiritual activity? Yes, Radharani? [devotee: to serve Krishna] The spiritual activity is to serve Krishna. And what is this service to Krishna called? [devotee: bhakti] Devotional service, bhakti. Clear? What you’re going to do? Aspire for Brahman realization or directly become engaged in devotional service? Now, that is the wonderful thing about devotional service, that even when we are in the material nature we can become engaged in devotional service. Now when you are engaged in devotional service, are you in the material nature or in the spiritual nature? [audience: spiritual nature] Because this devotional service is spiritual activity. So in this way, in spite of being in the material nature we can become spiritually situated. That is just by directly being engaged in service to Krishna.

Now, let us consider Satyaki or Yuyudhana. Where was Yuyudhana? What was Yuyudhana doing all the time? As I mentioned at the beginning of the class, what was he doing? He was driving Krishna’s chariot. He was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was Krishna’s personal secretary, personal servant. He was Krishna’s bodyguard, body guard in the sense he is going with Krishna and if somebody tries to do something, he says, “Come on, let’s see. You are trying to harm Krishna?” And who is he? He is an expert warrior. He is trained personally by Arjuna. He learned the art of weaponry by Arjuna. And a very dear friend of Krishna, a well wisher of the Pandavas. So we can see what is Satyaki’s situation, Yuyudhana? Is he situated at the spiritual platform or the material platform? [audience: spiritual platform] That is what is meant by being situated, Adhokshaja situation, transcendental situation, beyond this material nature in the absolute, spiritual reality.

Srimad Bhagavatam, third Canto, chapter one, text thirty one. This chapter is entitled as ‘Questions By Vidura.’

kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam

Synonyms:
kshemam — all good; sah — he; kaccit — whether; yuyudhanah — Satyaki; aste — is there; yah — one who; phalgunat — from Arjuna; labdha — has achieved; dhanuh-rahasyah — one who understands the intricacies of military art; lebhe — also achieved; anjasa — summarily; adhokshaja — of the Transcendence; sevaya — by service; eva — certainly; gatim — destination; tadiyam — transcendental; yatibhih — by great renouncers; durapam — very difficult to achieve.

Translation:
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

Purport:
The destination of transcendence is to become the personal associate of the Personality of Godhead, who is known as adhokshaja, He who is beyond the reach of the senses. The renouncers of the world, the sannyasis, give up all worldly connections, namely, family, wife, children, friends, home, wealth — everything — to attain the transcendental bliss of Brahman happiness. But adhokshaja happiness is beyond Brahman happiness. The empiric philosophers enjoy a transcendental quality of bliss by philosophical speculation on the Supreme Truth, but beyond that pleasure is the pleasure enjoyed by Brahman in His eternal form of the Personality of Godhead. Brahman bliss is enjoyed by living entities after liberation from material bondage. But Parabrahman, the Personality of Godhead, enjoys eternally bliss of His own potency, which is called the hladini potency. The empiric philosopher who studies Brahman by negation of the external features has not yet learned the quality of the hladini potency of Brahman. Out of many potencies of the Omnipotent, there are three features of His internal potency — namely samvit, sandhini and hladini. And in spite of their strict adherence to the principles of yama, niyama, asana, dhyana, dharana and pranayama, the great yogis and jnanis are unable to enter into the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is, however, easily realized by the devotees of the Lord by dint of devotional service. Yuyudhana achieved this stage of life, just as he achieved expert knowledge in military science from Arjuna. Thus his life was successful to the fullest extent from both the material and spiritual angles of vision. That is the way of devotional service to the Lord.
[End of Purport]
kshemam sa kaccid yuyudhana aste
yah phalgunal labdha-dhanu-rahasyah
lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva
gatim tadiyam yatibhir durapam
O Uddhava, does Yuyudhana fare well? He learned the intricacies of the military art from Arjuna and attained the transcendental destination which is very difficult to reach even for great renouncers.

So Yuyudhana or Satyaki is an eternal associate of Krishna, Vasudeva. He is His relative and he was His constant associate. Often Satyaki was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was a very fierce personality. When he saw that the Pandavas were mistreated by Duryodhana many a times he was very angry and he tried to just wage a war against the Kauravas, destroy them. And he was constantly with Krishna. In the battle of Kurukshetra he played a very, very important role. When Krishna went to make peace and Duryodhana was planning to arrest Krishna, Yuyudhana actually could make out they are trying to scheme some dubious plan, that they might hurt Krishna. So he actually left the assembly and he went and got the army ready, their army, the Yadu army ready at the doorway, just in case there was a need they were ready to attack.
So in this way we can see that Yuyudhana, how wonderful an associate he was of Krishna. Although he knew that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead he is so concerned about Krishna’s welfare. That is the nature of a devotee: although they know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead but they become very concerned about Him. Like if we don’t take care of Him then He will be inconvenienced. Like Mother Yashoda. She used to think that if she didn’t feed Krishna then Krishna will starve. Similarly, the devotees in the temple although they are serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they dress Krishna in a beautiful way. They cook for Krishna, thinking that the bhoga must be ready in time. And they cook it with all the care, concern and love that it must taste very nicely because Krishna is going to eat it.
So Prabhupada in the purport is pointing out, elaborating on that expression ‘lebhe ‘njasadhokshaja-sevayaiva.’ Adhokshaja is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and he achieved, ‘lebhe’, the service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Prabhupada, elaborating on that point, he is pointing out that there are two types of spiritualists: brahmavadis and devotees. The brahmavadis they worship the Brahman aspect or the impersonal aspect of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they achieve a situation where they become liberated from the material bondage. Then they become absorbed in a kind of joy, in a kind of bliss called ‘brahmananda’, being situated in the impersonal aspect of the spiritual reality. But Parama Brahma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is situated in another kind of bliss. That bliss is called ‘premananda’: the joy of loving exchange. So brahmananda is an impersonal joy; the joy of being free from all material bondage. It’s a kind of ananda (joy, bliss). It’s being free from all material entanglement. Although it is ananda but this is very insignificant ananda. It is very insignificant bliss. Yes, according to material calculation it is something very big, something wonderful, something inconceivable. But Krishna premananda, to develop a loving relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is another kind of experience. That joy is far beyond brahmananda.

In Caitanya Caritamrta it has been described that compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is like a footprint of a cow’s hoof, the water in the footprint made by a calf’s hoof compared to an ocean. In the soft ground when the cows move, their footprints make an impression. Sometimes in monsoon time some water gets accumulated there. That is called ‘khaat udhaka.’ So compared to an ocean what is this? This is also water, a reservoir of water but does it have any comparison to an ocean of water, this hoof print of a cow? Similarly, compared to Krishna premananda brahmananda is absolutely insignificant. And why? Because Krishna is anandamaya abhyasat, so He is the reservoir of all joy. And when one becomes connected to Krishna through loving exchange then he also experiences that joy that Krishna is experiencing out of that love. This loving potency, the potency that is responsible for creating that loving relationship is called hladini potency or pleasure giving potency.

So everybody is searching after joy. Everything that everybody does is for the sake of getting some pleasure, getting some joy, ananda. Whatever one does is for the sake of getting some pleasure. A child is playing with toys. Why does the child play with toys? To get some joy. He gets some pleasure, some joy out of it. Then he grows up and plays in the field, plays football. Why does he play football? You try to take him away from the field, he will be completely upset. Why? Because he is getting some joy. Then he grows up and then he plays another kind of game: gambling. Then he doesn’t play football, he gambles. Why does he gamble? Because he gets some joy out of it. Or he plays poker, or some sort of game. So in this way on the material platform people are trying to do something simply to get some joy. Why does one work so hard? People are working in an office or in a factory. Why? This is painful. Working in a factory or in an office, is it joyful? It’s not joyful. It’s very painful, but still, why does one undergo this painful experience? Manish, you are laughing. Why? Because he thinks that at the end of the month he will get some money and with that money he will do something that he likes to do, right?

So in this way, everybody whatever he is doing is for the sake of getting some joy. But then on the material platform what we realize is that there is no joy here. One may get so much money but still he doesn’t get what he wants. Then when one realizes that there is no enjoyment in the material nature then what he thinks? He either thinks that if he can get out of this miserable condition then he will become joyful. He realizes that the material condition is miserable and if he can get out of that miserable condition then he will become joyful. So that is the first step: let me get out of the material nature. There is some joy: “Now I don’t have to go to the factory. I don’t have to go to office. I don’t have to pay any tax. I don’t have to worry about the thieves. I don’t have to worry about the government. I don’t have to worry about the police. I don’t have to worry about the court. I don’t have to worry about my wife nagging.”

So, in this way they get out of the negative situation and that is kind of joy because there is no distress. To not have distress is a kind of joy, but is it real joy? Like, let us consider a graph. In a graph, what do you have? There is an axis to the graph. The left size of the axis is minus and the axis is zero. And the right side of the axis is plus. So if you are in a minus situation then if you can be free from the minus situation it is plus. You have three crores rupees in debt in the market. You are in anxiety: “Oh, how can I pay that money off?”  So when you pay the debt and you become zero, you come to the situation of zero then some relief, “Okay, I don’t have any more debts”, but still it may be cessation from minus and coming to a zero but zero is not the goal of one’s existence. Will anybody be happy if he doesn’t have any money in his pocket? Will you be happy if you don’t have any money in the pocket? But not to have any money in your pocket is better than having minus, debts in the market. But then what happens? Then you start earning money, now you don’t have any debts. So now whatever you earn that is plus, that is added to your bank account.

So material nature is like the negative side of the graph. To get out of the material nature and to become situated in that Brahman realization stage is like being in the zero situation. No more debts. No minus. It’s now zero but the plus is the situation of being in the spiritual state of ecstasy. There it is real joy, but how does one get into the plus? But renunciation, by negation, by giving up one can come to the zero situation but to go into the positive situation, the plus situation, one must develop his loving relationship with Krishna.

These are the three aspects: karma, jnana [knowledge] and bhakti. Karma is keeping you in the negative situation. You are acting on the material platform and you are getting the reactions of your actions. So it is tying you down to the material nature and you are going through different experiences, sometimes pleasant, sometimes unpleasant experiences in the material nature. Then through jnana when you realize how miserable this material existence is, a person who is not in jnana, a person who is ajnani, what does he think? What is his state of existence or state of consciousness? What is an ajnani’s state of existence? “I will enjoy in the material nature.” That is an ajnani. “Material nature is a place of enjoyment”, that is ajnana. But this material nature is a place of suffering, that is the first stage of knowledge (jnana), spiritual knowledge in that sense. And when one acts with that understanding, it is a place of suffering, does anybody want to be in a place of suffering? Nobody wants to be in a place of suffering. So when one is in a place of suffering, what does he want to do? He wants to get out of that suffering condition. If you know that if you stay in some place, somebody will come and start beating you up with a stick, what will you do? Will you stay there or immediately run away? Whether you have to break the window or whether you have to scale the wall you will try to get out of that place. So similarly when one is situated in knowledge his condition, his consideration is to get out of this miserable condition. But getting out of the miserable condition where does one come to? He comes to a situation of not suffering, not minus. What is not minus, not minus, not plus? Zero, the axis of the graph.

And then, how does one go into the plus situation? What is the condition for going to the plus, the region of the plus, the positive side? What is the condition? How does one get into the plus situation? Yes? [audience member: when we chant the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra] Yes, what does it mean? [Audience member: (translation from Hindi) It means that we always remember the Holy Names of the Lord] Okay, so to go to the plus situation is, Medha? [Devotee: Guru Maharaja, by developing our loving relation with Krishna] Very good. By developing a loving relationship with Krishna one can go to the plus situation, the positive side. You are also correct. Chanting Hare Krishna is the process of developing that love. So the main consideration is how to develop love for Krishna. And when we develop our love for Krishna, the more we develop our love for Krishna the more we go into the positive side. So that is what Prabhupada is actually pointing out in the purport.

Like, a jiva by his own, a jiva when he becomes situated in the Brahman situation he is out of the material nature and he is in his spiritual situation. Brahman means spiritual. Are we material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] We are spiritual. The body is material but are we this body? No, what are we? [audience: the soul] The soul, and is the soul material? [audience: no] What is the soul? [audience: spiritual] Very good. So you are? [audience: spiritual] Spiritual, okay. So we are spiritual but now, are we spiritual? If we look at ourselves, are you material or spiritual? [audience: spiritual] A mosquito comes and you say, “Oh, mosquito is biting me.” So biting who? Is the mosquito biting the soul or the body? [audience: the body] Then why you are saying, “The mosquito is biting me?” So who is that ‘me’? This body! Where is my consciousness? In the body. So where I am? Am I in the spiritual constitution or material constitution? [audience: material constitution] Material constitution. So this material constitution means suffering condition. So to get out of this suffering condition is to become situated in our spiritual identity. So that preliminary stage of spiritual situation is Brahman realization. Aham Brahmasmi. Aham Brahmasmi means I am spiritual, I am not material. But when I become situated in my spiritual activity then I am properly situated in my spiritual identity. If I realize that I am spiritual but I am not spiritually active then am I really spiritual? Because a living entity has to be active. Our existence is synonymous to activities. Now the consideration is, what is the spiritual activity? What is the spiritual activity? Yes, Radharani? [devotee: to serve Krishna] The spiritual activity is to serve Krishna. And what is this service to Krishna called? [devotee: bhakti] Devotional service, bhakti. Clear? What you’re going to do? Aspire for Brahman realization or directly become engaged in devotional service? Now, that is the wonderful thing about devotional service, that even when we are in the material nature we can become engaged in devotional service. Now when you are engaged in devotional service, are you in the material nature or in the spiritual nature? [audience: spiritual nature] Because this devotional service is spiritual activity. So in this way, in spite of being in the material nature we can become spiritually situated. That is just by directly being engaged in service to Krishna.

Now, let us consider Satyaki or Yuyudhana. Where was Yuyudhana? What was Yuyudhana doing all the time? As I mentioned at the beginning of the class, what was he doing? He was driving Krishna’s chariot. He was Krishna’s chariot driver. He was Krishna’s personal secretary, personal servant. He was Krishna’s bodyguard, body guard in the sense he is going with Krishna and if somebody tries to do something, he says, “Come on, let’s see. You are trying to harm Krishna?” And who is he? He is an expert warrior. He is trained personally by Arjuna. He learned the art of weaponry by Arjuna. And a very dear friend of Krishna, a well wisher of the Pandavas. So we can see what is Satyaki’s situation, Yuyudhana? Is he situated at the spiritual platform or the material platform? [audience: spiritual platform] That is what is meant by being situated, Adhokshaja situation, transcendental situation, beyond this material nature in the absolute, spiritual reality.

There is one incidence, let me see. I am just going back to Mahabharata. You want to hear Mahabharata? [audience: yes!] Okay.
“So the Pandavas were banished to the forest.”
Do you remember the Pandavas’ situation? The Pandavas got their kingdom. Actually it was decided, Bhishma mediated and decided that half of the kingdom should be given to them. Prior to that Duryodhana tried to burn them in the house of shellac but the Pandavas with the help of Vidura escaped. Vidura told about Duryodhana’s treacherous plan, so they dug a tunnel out of the house, set the house on fire and escaped. But they were hiding. They were just travelling around as brahmanas, wandering brahmanas. And then at that time they got the news that Draupadi was going to select her husband. Being advised by Vyasadeva they went to that place, kingdom of Drupada, Pancala. Draupadi was the most beautiful lady of that time, most celebrated beauty of that time. And she was Yajnaseni: she was not born in an ordinary way; she appeared from a sacrificial fire. From the fire she appeared. So in that, there was a condition that one has to hit the target, a very, very difficult target to hit. Making the arrow go through a moving wheel with a hole and had to hit the eye of the fish. And that also not looking up, looking down on the reflection on a pot of water. No one succeeded, no one could do that.

Then when none of the kshatriyas could do that, could hit the target, so Drishtadyumna, Draupadi’s brother, invited that if any brahmana would like to do that, like to give it a try. So at that time Arjuna, being provoked by Krishna, did that. He stood up. But everyone thought that this brahmana has become crazy. When kshatriyas could not hit that mark, this brahmana, how he is going to do that? They started to insult. Some started to say that, “Seeing the beauty of Draupadi this character has gone crazy.” And some said, “Well, let him. If he wants to try, what’s the harm? The brahmanas have been invited and after all, the brahmanas are better than the kshatriyas.” Finally when Arjuna hit the mark and won Draupadi a big fight ensued, and in that fight Arjuna and Bhima defeated all the assembled kshatriyas. And then Drupada sent his spies to find out who these boys were and invited them and he recognized that these are the Pandavas. So everyone was very happy that the Pandavas were still alive, along with Kunti whom they thought were dead.

So then Bhishma told Dhrtarashtra, “Call them back.” Bhishma appealed to Dhrtarashtra that, “Give them their share of the kingdom. You divide the kingdom into two. Keep one half for your sons and give the other half [to them].” So Dhrtarashtra gave the barren half of the land, the part of the land that was barren, no good, and for his sons he kept Hastinapura, the capital and the good part of the kingdom. But the Pandavas, due to their piety and due to their good nature, due to their wonderful qualities, that part which was, they established the capital in a place called Indraprastha and that became even more prosperous than the other half. Then they organized a Rajasuya yajna, a sacrifice to establish their sovereignty over all other kings. And the consideration was that Jarasandha has already captured so many kings and Jarasandha is extremely powerful and Jarasandha is against the Pandavas. Jarasandha would line against the Pandavas. So in order to successfully execute the Rajasuya yajna they have to kill Jarasandha first. That was Krishna’s advice. So Krishna came and Krishna told that. Yudhisthira asked that, “How to kill Jarasandha?” And Krishna said that, “We, three of us will go. Arjuna, Bhima and Myself. And then Bhima will challenge him in a wrestling bout and in that wrestling bout he should defeat Jarasandha.”
But Jarasandha also was kind of immortal because Jarasandha was born in a very special way. His father didn’t have any son. He had two wives and he was equally disposed to these two wives and none of them could bear him a child. He found out that one sage named Candakaushika was in the vicinity and he approached that very exalted saintly personality. He begged him to bless him to have a child. So Candakaushika gave him a mango. He was sitting under a mango tree and when the king was talking to him, just a mango fell from the tree and he gave the mango to the king and said that, “You’ll have a child.” So since the king was equally disposed to both his wives, he gave that one half of the mango to one wife and the other half to the other wife. Both of them became pregnant and in due course gave birth to half of a child, a dead half of a child. So what is the use of this half of a, one half came out from one womb, the other half came from the other womb. So they threw away the child, the dead [child]. At night there was a witch, a demoness called Jara, she came across this flesh of the baby. Her business was to eat babies’ blood and flesh so she was very happy to see this dead baby, a dead body is lying. She picked them up, those two pieces and while she was carrying she placed it together and the child became alive and started to cry. And it happened near the king’s palace so hearing the child’s cry everybody came out of the house and then Jara realized that this is actually the king’s child. So she felt that, “After all, I live in the king’s kingdom so I should do him some favor.” So she assumed the form of a beautiful woman and offered the child to the king and she told what actually happened. The king was very happy and because it was sandha, joined by Jara, therefore the king named the baby after her, after that witch, after that demoness, rakshasi Jara and named him as Jarasandha.

So Krishna told, “The only way Jarasandha can die is if his body is split into two.” So Bhima went and fought, challenged him in a wrestling match. Jarasandha asked them, they appeared their as brahmanas, and Jarasandha could recognize them. He said that, “I can see that you are not brahmanas. Why did you come like this, hiding your identity? And why did you also come from the backdoor?” Then Krishna actually gave some reasons that this was justified and He pointed out that about coming from the backdoor, He said, “When you go to a friend’s house you go through the front door and when you go to an enemy’s house you go through the backdoor.” Then Jarasandha asked, “Why are you considering me to be your enemy? I didn’t do any harm to you.” Then Krishna said that, “You have arrested all these kings and that’s why we consider you to be an enemy. This is an inappropriate act to human society. You have captivated them and you want to slaughter them in your sacrifice. So that’s why we are challenging you to a fight.” And it was decided that Jarasandha would pick one of them and Jarasandha selected Bhima. They fought for, I think for about eighteen days, non-stop. For eighteen days they were wrestling and both were extremely powerful. But eventually Jarasandha started losing his strength. So then Bhima picked him up and started to roll him over his head and he rolled him so many times he became unconscious. Then Bhima put him on the ground, with his feet he held on to one leg and with his hands he just tore off the other half of the body and that’s how Jarasandha was killed.

So after killing Jarasandha they released all the eighty six kings and those kings became very submissive to them. And after that Rajasuya yajna was performed, and after the successful completion of the Rajasuya yajna, in that Rajasuya probably you remember, Sishupala started to insult Krishna and at that time Krishna severed his head. Then they were considering that such an act was performed in a sacrifice, whether it marks any auspiciousness. And Vyasadeva pointed out that, “Yes, the result of this act will fructify after thirteen years.” And during this Rajasuya yajna, when Duryodhana came and saw this palace of the Pandavas and the opulence of the Pandavas, he became very envious. So his uncle, Shakuni, advised him to invite Yudhisthira Maharaja in a game of dice and defeat him and take everything away from him. And as a result of that they lost everything and had to go to the forest for twelve years. And the condition was that the thirteenth year they will stay incognito and if anybody recognizes them, any one of them, then this condition will repeat, another twelve years of forest, exile in the forest.

So anyway, this is how the Pandavas were sent to the forest and their kingdom was taken away. Although they became the ruler of the earth planet after performing Rajasuya yajna, they lost everything. So that was what I was saying, at that time Satyaki actually was planning to wage a war against Duryodhana. Anyway, maybe I can read next time. Okay, you want? [laughs]

“Krishna went to the Kamyaka forest to see the Pandavas. With Him went Drishtadyumna, Dhristaketu, the king of the Cedis and Kekaya brothers, famed the world over for their bravery. With Krishna went all the heroes of the Vrishni house. They were shocked to see the condition of the Pandavas and their queen. They sat round Yudhisthira. Krishna said, “The earth has become thirsty for blood. She will drink the blood of the sinners; Duryodhana, Radheya, Shakuni and Dushasana. We are all here. All the kings of the world are shocked at what has happened. Yudhisthira, why should you live in the forest because they asked you to? It was not a fair game, nor was it right on their part to impose this condition on you. Let us, all of us march against the city of Hastinapura. I have brought My army with Me, so have these heroes. The entire Bharatavarsha is on your side. We can vanquish the Kauravas easily.” Yudhisthira said, “No, Krishna. I have done a wrong thing and this exile i

There is one incidence, let me see. I am just going back to Mahabharata. You want to hear Mahabharata? [audience: yes!] Okay.
“So the Pandavas were banished to the forest.”

Do you remember the Pandavas’ situation? The Pandavas got their kingdom. Actually it was decided, Bhishma mediated and decided that half of the kingdom should be given to them. Prior to that Duryodhana tried to burn them in the house of shellac but the Pandavas with the help of Vidura escaped. Vidura told about Duryodhana’s treacherous plan, so they dug a tunnel out of the house, set the house on fire and escaped. But they were hiding. They were just travelling around as brahmanas, wandering brahmanas. And then at that time they got the news that Draupadi was going to select her husband. Being advised by Vyasadeva they went to that place, kingdom of Drupada, Pancala. Draupadi was the most beautiful lady of that time, most celebrated beauty of that time. And she was Yajnaseni: she was not born in an ordinary way, she appeared from a sacrificial fire. From the fire she appeared. So in that, there was a condition that one has to hit the target, a very, very difficult target to hit. Making the arrow go through a moving wheel with a hole and had to hit the eye of the fish. And that also not looking up, looking down on the reflection on a pot of water. No one succeeded, no one could do that.

Then when none of the kshatriyas could do that, could hit the target, so Drishtadyumna, Draupadi’s brother, invited that if any brahmana would like to do that, like to give it a try. So at that time Arjuna, being provoked by Krishna, did that. He stood up. But everyone thought that this brahmana has become crazy. When kshatriyas could not hit that mark, this brahmana, how he is going to do that? They started to insult. Some started to say that, “Seeing the beauty of Draupadi this character has gone crazy.” And some said, “Well, let him. If he wants to try, what’s the harm? The brahmanas have been invited and after all, the brahmanas are better than the kshatriyas.” Finally when Arjuna hit the mark and won Draupadi a big fight ensued, and in that fight Arjuna and Bhima defeated all the assembled kshatriyas. And then Drupada sent his spies to find out who these boys were and invited them and he recognized that these are the Pandavas. So everyone was very happy that the Pandavas were still alive, along with Kunti whom they thought were dead.

So then Bhishma told Dhrtarashtra, “Call them back.” Bhishma appealed to Dhrtarashtra that, “Give them their share of the kingdom. You divide the kingdom into two. Keep one half for your sons and give the other half [to them].” So Dhrtarashtra gave the barren half of the land, the part of  the land that was barren, no good, and for his sons he kept Hastinapura, the capital and the good part of the kingdom. But the Pandavas, due to their piety and due to their good nature, due to their wonderful qualities, that part which was, they established the capital in a place called Indraprastha and that became even more prosperous than the other half. Then they organized a Rajasuya yajna, a sacrifice to establish their sovereignty over all other kings. And the consideration was that Jarasandha has already captured so many kings and Jarasandha is extremely powerful and Jarasandha is against the Pandavas. Jarasandha would line against the Pandavas. So in order to successfully execute the Rajasuya yajna they have to kill Jarasandha first. That was Krishna’s advice. So Krishna came and Krishna told that. Yudhisthira asked that, “How to kill Jarasandha?” And Krishna said that, “We, three of us will go. Arjuna, Bhima and Myself. And then Bhima will challenge him in a wrestling bout and in that wrestling bout he should defeat Jarasandha.”

But Jarasandha also was kind of immortal because Jarasandha was born in a very special way. His father didn’t have any son. He had two wives and he was equally disposed to these two wives and none of them could bear him a child. He found out that one sage named Candakaushika was in the vicinity and he approached that very exalted saintly personality. He begged him to bless him to have a child. So Candakaushika gave him a mango. He was sitting under a mango tree and when the king was talking to him, just a mango fell from the tree and he gave the mango to the king and said that, “You’ll have a child.” So since the king was equally disposed to both his wives, he gave that one half of the mango to one wife and the other half to the other wife. Both of them became pregnant and in due course gave birth to half of a child, a dead half of a child. So what is the use of this half of a, one half came out from one womb, the other half came from the other womb. So they threw away the child, the dead [child]. At night there was a witch, a demoness called Jara, she came across this flesh of the baby. Her business was to eat babies’ blood and flesh so she was very happy to see this dead baby, a dead body is lying. She picked them up, those two pieces and while she was carrying she placed it together and the child became alive and started to cry. And it happened near the king’s palace so hearing the child’s cry everybody came out of the house and then Jara realized that this is actually the king’s child. So she felt that, “After all, I live in the king’s kingdom so I should do him some favor.” So she assumed the form of a beautiful woman and offered the child to the king and she told what actually happened. The king was very happy and because it was sandha, joined by Jara, therefore the king named the baby after her, after that witch, after that demoness, rakshasi Jara and named him as Jarasandha.

So Krishna told, “The only way Jarasandha can die is if his body is split into two.” So Bhima went and fought, challenged him in a wrestling match. Jarasandha asked them, they appeared their as brahmanas, and Jarasandha could recognize them. He said that, “I can see that you are not brahmanas. Why did you come like this, hiding your identity? And why did you also come from the backdoor?” Then Krishna actually gave some reasons that this was justified and He pointed out that about coming from the backdoor, He said, “When you go to a friend’s house you go through the front door and when you go to an enemy’s house you go through the backdoor.” Then Jarasandha asked, “Why are you considering me to be your enemy? I didn’t do any harm to you.” Then Krishna said that, “You have arrested all these kings and that’s why we consider you to be an enemy. This is an inappropriate act to human society. You have captivated them and you want to slaughter them in your sacrifice. So that’s why we are challenging you to a fight.” And it was decided that Jarasandha would pick one of them and Jarasandha selected Bhima. They fought for, I think for about eighteen days, non-stop. For eighteen days they were wrestling and both were extremely powerful. But eventually Jarasandha started losing his strength. So then Bhima picked him up and started to roll him over his head and he rolled him so many times he became unconscious. Then Bhima put him on the ground, with his feet he held on to one leg and with his hands he just tore off the other half of the body and that’s how Jarasandha was killed.

So after killing Jarasandha they released all the eighty six kings and those kings became very submissive to them. And after that Rajasuya yajna was performed, and after the successful completion of the Rajasuya yajna, in that Rajasuya probably you remember, Sishupala started to insult Krishna and at that time Krishna severed his head. Then they were considering that such an act was performed in a sacrifice, whether it marks any auspiciousness. And Vyasadeva pointed out that, “Yes, the result of this act will fructify after thirteen years.” And during this Rajasuya yajna, when Duryodhana came and saw this palace of the Pandavas and the opulence of the Pandavas, he became very envious. So his uncle, Shakuni, advised him to invite Yudhisthira Maharaja in a game of dice and defeat him and take everything away from him. And as a result of that they lost everything and had to go to the forest for twelve years. And the condition was that the thirteenth year they will stay incognito and if anybody recognizes them, any one of them, then this condition will repeat, another twelve years of forest, exile in the forest.

So anyway, this is how the Pandavas were sent to the forest and their kingdom was taken away. Although they became the ruler of the earth planet after performing Rajasuya yajna, they lost everything. So that was what I was saying, at that time Satyaki actually was planning to wage a war against Duryodhana. Anyway, maybe I can read next time. Okay, you want? [laughs]

“Krishna went to the Kamyaka forest to see the Pandavas. With Him went Drishtadyumna, Dhristaketu, the king of the Cedis and Kekaya brothers, famed the world over for their bravery. With Krishna went all the heroes of the Vrishni house. They were shocked to see the condition of the Pandavas and their queen. They sat round Yudhisthira. Krishna said, “The earth has become thirsty for blood. She will drink the blood of the sinners; Duryodhana, Radheya, Shakuni and Dushasana. We are all here. All the kings of the world are shocked at what has happened. Yudhisthira, why should you live in the forest because they asked you to? It was not a fair game, nor was it right on their part to impose this condition on you. Let us, all of us march against the city of Hastinapura. I have brought My army with Me, so have these heroes. The entire Bharatavarsha is on your side. We can vanquish the Kauravas easily.” Yudhisthira said, “No, Krishna. I have done a wrong thing and this exile is the expiation for it. I have to go through that and with me my brothers and my beloved queen. They have to suffer for what I did. I would give anything to recall the past but I cannot. Fate is inexorable. I have to suffer. The great Vyasa foretold me about this spell of bad luck when I was in Indraprastha. I have to refuse Your offer, Krishna. Please forgive me.” Yudhisthira sat silent.”

[HH BCS] Now here is the difference between Yudhisthira and Arjuna. Why Arjuna is considered to be a greater devotee? Because Arjuna just did whatever Krishna told him, whereas Yudhisthira was not listening to Krishna. Yudhisthira was not fully surrendered to Krishna. He was considering the moral consideration, the ethical consideration, what is right, what is wrong. What is dharma, what is the course according to dharma? But that’s why we find in Bhagavad Gita the instruction sarva-dharman parityaja.[Bg 18.66] Yudhisthira could not take that condition, sarva-dharman parityaja. He had the consideration of relative dharma but what is the ultimate dharma? To surrender unto Krishna and follow His instructions is the ultimate dharma. So here Krishna is telling that, “I have come with My army and all these kings have come so let’s attack the Kauravas and defeat them and reinstate you in your kingdom.” But Yudhisthira said no: that is he is not completely surrendered to Krishna. So what do we learn from that? Should we follow Yudhisthira Maharaja or Arjuna? [audience: Arjuna] Our choice is clear but at that time Yudhisthira Maharaja had another consideration because Krishna did not speak Bhagavad Gita as yet. And also another thing is, Krishna didn’t speak Bhagavad Gita to Yudhisthira Maharaja. He spoke Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna. So Yudhisthira Maharaja did not hear that instruction at that time, sarva-dharman parityaja mam ekam sharanam vraja.

[Continues reading from Mahabharata]
“Krishna was terribly angry with the Kauravas. The anger of Krishna was as terrible as that of Rudra at the time of destruction of the asuras. Arjuna tried to pacify his dearest friend. Arjuna tried to remove the angry frown from the charming face of Krishna. Krishna said, “Yudhisthira, your life and Mine are bound up in each other. You are mine and I am yours. We belong to each other. No one can separate you from Me. Those who love you are those who love Me. Your enemies are My enemies. I will not rest until I destroy My enemies. They will perish, if not now, later. Since you are bent on following the conditions to the letter but it is all a question of time. I will make this earth wet with the blood of these blasted kshatriyas. I will then perform the coronation of the best of men. This I swear I will do. Yes, I swear I will do.”

When she saw her dear Krishna and her beloved brother Drishtadyumna the grief of Draupadi became intense. All the sorrow she had suffered on that memorable day, all the insults which had been hurled at her by Radheya, Duryodhana and Dushasana became fresh again. She sobbed as though her heart would break. The anger of Krishna against the Kauravas was such a contrast to the patience of Yudhisthira that it gave her immense comfort. She looked at Krishna, her eyes full of glistening tears. She said, “Krishna, look at me. I am the favored queen of the five great Pandavas reputed to be the greatest heroes in the world. I am the sister of Drishtadyumna, the fire born. I am the dear friend of Krishna and yet this has happened to me. They insulted me, Krishna. They dragged me to the court and, Krishna, they said I was the slave of those beasts. Krishna, they said such awful things. The old dotted Bhishma and Dhrtarashtra were there but they did nothing to prevent this outrage. They did nothing and they said nothing. I will tell you about these husbands of mine. What is the use of Bhima killing a hundred rakshasas? What if Arjuna fought with the great Indra himself? What is the use of the conquest of Nakula and Sahadeva? What do I care if Yudhisthira is called the sole monarch of this earth since he has performed the Rajasuya? When my hair purified by the sacred waters during the Rajasuya, when this my hair was touched by Dushasana how could they have stood calm? Dushasana tried to disrobe me. These men were silent. Can anything be more horrible than that? If it had not been for your infinite kindness I would have been disrobed completely and still these husbands of mine would have been silent. Yudhisthira talks glibly about dharma but isn’t it the highest dharma of the husband to protect his wife when she is being insulted? Should they not rescue the wife from a strong man who is getting ready to harass her as no other woman has been harassed before? Even if it had been just any woman they should have leaped to her rescue, as it is written down in the book of rules. They call themselves kshatriyas and they do not know the meaning of the word. But chivalry is dead in the hearts of men. They are not men.”

Draupadi’s tears flowed without restraint. She could not speak no more. Krishna took her face in His hands. With His fingers he tenderly wiped away her tears, nor were His own eyes dry. He tried to comfort her. He said, “Wait a little longer, Draupadi. Your tears will not be in vain. The women of the Kuru house will weep even as you are weeping now. When Arjuna’s arrows quench their thirst in the blood of Radheya they will weep. When Bhima’s hands are red with the blood of Dushasana they will weep. When that sinful Duryodhana lies on the battlefield with his thigh broken by Bhima they will weep. I promise to you most solemnly that all these things will happen. Nothing can stop Me, nothing. Listen to My oath. The heavens may fall from their height, the snowy peaks of Himavan may slip and fall, the seas may dry up, the earth may shiver into millions of flinders but the words of Krishna will never be vain, empty words. You will see all the Kauravas dead. Do not cry, my dear sister, do not cry.”

Draupadi’s frenzied sobbing abated slowly after hearing the words of Krishna. He said, “Yudhisthira, if I had been at Dwaraka at that time of the tragedy I would have heard about it and I would have hurried to Hastinapura uninvited. I would have stopped this game of dice. I would have made Bhishma and Dhrtarashtra take steps to avert this crime. But I had gone away to Shalva. I had to fight with Shalva and Sobha. Sobha was a friend of Sishupala. To avenge the death of his friend he harassed the people of Dwaraka when I was away in Indraprastha. I went to fight with them. After killing them I hurried back to Dwaraka. The omens were all pointed to some calamity. There in Dwaraka I heard about the injustice done to you. I came here to see you and talk to you about it. I thought that I would coax you to fight for your kingdom. You have now spent thirteen days in the forest. According to some rule a day means a year. So Yudhisthira, you will not be breaking your promise if you fight now. What do you say? You will not break your promise if you fight now. What do you say?”

Yudhisthira smiled at Krishna and said nothing. Krishna smiled too and said, “It will be as you wish. But their end is near. We will see you king very soon. I’ll place the crown on your head with these hands of Mine. You can be sure of that.” Krishna took leave of all of them one by one. Drishtadyumna bade farewell to his sister and his brothers-in-law. He embraced his dear friend Bhima. The Kekaya brothers with Dhristaketu took leave of the Pandavas. They all went away leaving the Pandavas to ponder on their encouraging words and the solemn oath of Krishna.”

[HH BCS:] In one hand we can see that if Yudhisthira Maharaja listened to Krishna’s words then Mahabharata wouldn’t have happened. The history would have been something else. But anyway, we also have to understand that this is Krishna’s plan. This is Krishna’s arrangement, Krishna’s divine arrangement. Anyway, we are happy that we have Mahabharata. Isn’t it exciting? So much, that every page of Mahabharata actually churns the emotions of the heart. There will never be a literature like this in this world. And it is not a fiction, it’s factual. And facts are stranger than fictions. Mahabharata is the proof.

Hare Krishna! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Does anybody have any question?
There are so many questions! Yeah?

Devotee: I have two questions. The first one is although devotees know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead they feel concerned for Krishna. So similarly even we execute devotional service we feel in spite of [inaudible] still we feel concerned for devotees. For example Srila Prabhupada wanted to go on Govardhana parikrama towards the end of his leela, but although that was his instruction devotees were concerned and they had to find a way how to avert that situation. So, how to find the balance between the concern and following the instructions?
BCS: You see, that concern is an expression of love. It cannot be avoided. It’s inevitable. Like for example, say you are with your friend and your friend is very strong and powerful. Somebody comes to attack your friend. Then do you just leave your friend there and say, “Okay, protect yourself?” Or you just roll up your sleeves and face those people? Although your friend is much stronger, why do you do that? [devotee: love] Because of love! Because of your love you feel like protecting that person although he may be much stronger than you. So that is the feeling of a devotee. Although they know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead but he thinks that, “With my might I will defend Him. I’ll serve Krishna.” Right? So that is the difference between love and knowledge. Those who are in knowledge they will say, “Oh, Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Let me just sit down. He will take care of Himself.” That’s the difference between the yogis and the devotees. Yogis are meditating and thinking, “Oh, Krishna can take care of Himself.” Even when the demons come they are sitting there. But the devotees, either they stand up against the demon or they become afraid of the demon and run to Krishna. “Krishna! Krishna! Do something about it!” So the concern here for the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an expression of love although they know He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Devotee: So sometimes when we are in the situation where we might have to, take the example of Srila Prabhupada, he wanted to go for Govardhana parikrama. So the instructions have still to be followed. You cannot disobey the instructions. But then we have concerns, how do we
BCS: Well, since you brought up that Govardhana parikrama, Prabhupada’s desire, some of us did not succumb to that instruction of Srila Prabhupada. And Prabhupada finally accepted that because he saw the love and love prevailed.

Devotee:  Another question.
BCS: Okay.
Devotee: You said how we have to develop our love for Krishna, so is it that our love for Krishna will develop only when we reach the raganuga platform or even in the vaidhi stage we do have love for Krishna, a sense of love for Krishna?

BCS: See, the love also has two different stages: interrupted love and uninterrupted love. So when other considerations are there then the love is interrupted. So on vaidhi platform or until when one reaches perfection the love is interrupted, but on the perfected platform it is uninterrupted and unconditional, ahaituki apratihata.

Devotee: Even on vaidhi platform there is love?
BCS: Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, when the devotees are dressing the Lord, don’t they feel that, when they are cooking for the Lord. Gradually it will develop as they keep on practicing devotional service, vaidhi bhakti. It’ll increase. Initially there may not be anything, any feeling. “Oh, the temple president or the head pujari told me to cook so therefore I am cooking.” But then as it continues, as it develops, as he makes advancement the love will develop. Then the consideration won’t be, “Because I have been told to cook, that’s why I am cooking”, but, “Because I love Krishna that’s why I am cooking.”

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, what is the specialty of that dice that if Shakuni spoke of six then definitely six will come?
BCS: Huh? What’s that?

Devotee: What is the specialty of the dice that he [inaudible]
BCS: Shakuni was a wizard. In a game of dice he had this expertise. How did he get that expertise? I don’t know. Yes, Radharani?

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, you mentioned that Vyasadeva said that because Sishupala’s head was severed at the yajna it will bring inauspiciousness and the Pandavas will have to suffer for that.
BCS: Because at that time inauspicious signs started to show up. But Vyasadeva said that the result will come after thirteen years.

Devotee: The question is if the Supreme Personality of Godhead killed someone so how is that inauspicious?
BCS: Well, the thing is, He acts in a certain way and you know, there is a material reaction also that falls in, in a line with that. This is another thing, when the Supreme Personality of Godhead performs His pastimes on this planet, He doesn’t always act as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He also follows the rules of this material nature. Like, when He appears auspicious signs appear. When Krishna appeared all the stars and planets came into the most perfect conjunction. So in this way there are inauspicious signs also displayed to indicate certain inauspicious reaction. Like that.
Devotee: In relation to Krishnarcana prabhu’s question, I asked you the same question many, many years ago that how we can ascertain that what we do is just out of duty or out of love, and you told me very nicely and I remember till this day, that when we do something out of duty we think that, “Oh, Krishna’s offering has to be ready by twelve”, and that if we have the attitude that Krishna is hungry and we have to prepare His food by twelve,  that is devotional service, that is love.
BCS: Okay, thank you.

Devotee: [inaudible]
BCS: Yeah, so that’s why it has been time and time again pointed out that the course of dharma is very intricate. It is very difficult to figure out what is…that is what Bhishma was actually confused about. Although he was a very just and noble man but he didn’t know what was right and at that time he couldn’t figure out what should be done. Like, in one hand there is a game of dice, there was a consideration of their conditions that was laid during the game, and they lost and, you know, all that, and it’s true. Like Draupadi, she harbored some very strong feelings against Bhishma, that he was a noble man, so virtuous, so righteous, but where was his nobility when I was being insulted? He was just sitting like an idiot in the middle of the assembly.
Devotee: [inaudible]

BCS: Yes, Sunita?
Devotee: Guru Maharaja, Bhishma’s non action at the time Draupadi was being disrobed, can it be said his allegiance to the kingdom or to Dhrtarashtra came in the way and that’s why he did not act. So in a way it was his selfishness which stopped him from doing that, can we say that?

BCS: Well, there is another way of looking at it. When Bhishma was lying on the bed of arrows then the Pandavas came along with Krishna, just before he was about to leave, and Bhishma started to instruct Yudhisthira Maharaja on the principles of dharma, varnashrama dharma. At that time Bhishma noticed there was a smile on Draupadi’s face, kind of a smile of resentment. So he asked Draupadi why she was smiling in that way, and Draupadi said, “Where was your wisdom when I was being disrobed in front of you in that assembly?” Then Bhishma said, “You see, at that time because I was eating the food of the Kauravas my consciousness became affected because I was eating their food. But today that blood has been drained out of my body. So now my consciousness has become purified.” This also shows how one’s consciousness becomes affected in such a subtle way as through food. And that’s why we have to be very careful who cooks, what kind of food we are eating, because it does affect our consciousness.

Devotee: Can you tell us something about Kalki avatara?
BCS: Yeah. Kalki avatara will come at the end of the Kali Yuga. The duration of Kali Yuga is 432.000 years, out of that only five thousand years have gone by. So there are still 427.000 years left. And at that time, say 427.000 years from now, Krishna will appear as Kalki avatara. He will appear as the son of a brahmana called Vishnuyasha, in a place called Shambhala. At that time the whole world will become completely filled with demoniac people. The condition of the world will become so terrible that we can’t even imagine.You can say that there won’t be any food to eat, there won’t be any water to drink. People will become practically cannibals and the bandits will become the rulers. And the situation will become so difficult, because of these bandits exploiting people as their rulers, they will be ruling the government.

And we can see what’s happening now also there are just every year more and more taxes being imposed. And who has to pay the tax? The common people. But at least, you know, now they can bear it because the tax  they are being imposed on is less than their income. But what if their income is less than the tax that they have to pay? And you can see how one becomes submissive to that system, like although you may not like it, but you have to pay the tax. You have to pay the tax. You can’t avoid it, no matter how unjust and unfair this tax system may be. So at that time it will become so bad that people will run away from the cities and villages and towns. They’ll run into the forests, just to be away from these demoniac rulers. There won’t be any law and order at that time. So at that time Kalki will appear and he will start to slaughter all these demons and he will wipe out all the demons and since most of the people will become demoniac, Kalki will actually destroy practically everybody. Only a handful of devotees will be spared and with them the Satya Yuga will begin, Satya Yuga will start.
Yes?

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, what is the difference between abhakta and ajnana?
BCS: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnana? [The rest of the conversation in Hindi, translation by the transcriber] You tell me. You spoke in Hindi, abhakta means one who is not a devotee and ajnana means one who has no knowledge. So what does it mean? We have found the meanings of the words, so what is your question?

Devotee: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnani?
BCS: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnani. When ignorance is dispelled we receive knowledge. When one receives knowledge it doesn’t automatically mean that he has become a devotee.

Devotee: They are different things?
BCS: They are different things. When one receives real knowledge, what is real knowledge? Real knowledge is that to surrender unto the Lord is life’s ultimate goal. And when people do that then they become devotees, alright? Meaning that one can become knowledgeable once the ignorance is dispelled but that is not the highest goal. After receiving knowledge when one starts to render service to the Lord then the ultimate goal of life is achieved. There is another consideration. Someone in ignorance can become a knowledgeable devotee of the Lord. When one is in ignorance he becomes knowledgeable by receiving knowledge. One who is not a devotee of the Lord he can be a knowledgeable person, he can’t stay in ignorance. He can be knowledgeable but he is still a non-devotee.

Devotee: One should not associate with a non-devotee?
BCS: Yes.

Devotee: So how can a non-devotee become knowledgeable?
BCS: How can a non-devotee become knowledgeable. Like there are big scholars (pundits), if they are non-devotees, what can you do? Will you associate with them? What will happen if you associate with them? Will you gain anything?

Devotee: No not with non-devotees.
BCS: That’s why you must not associate with non-devotees. You can associate with someone in ignorance, but never associate with a non-devotee. Non-devotee [abhakta] means one who is against the Lord. Those who are envious of the Lord, if you associate with them there are chances of falling down (going against the Lord). Hare Krishna.

Okay, thank you very much! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Shambhala. At that time the whole world will become completely filled with demoniac people. The condition of the world will become so terrible that we can’t even imagine.You can say that there won’t be any food to eat, there won’t be any water to drink. People will become practically cannibals and the bandits will become the rulers. And the situation will become so difficult, because of these bandits exploiting people as their rulers, they will be ruling the government.
And we can see what’s happening now also there are just every year more and more taxes being imposed. And who has to pay the tax? The common people. But at least, you know, now they can bear it because the tax  they are being imposed on is less than their income. But what if their income is less than the tax that they have to pay? And you can see how one becomes submissive to that system, like although you may not like it, but you have to pay the tax. You have to pay the tax. You can’t avoid it, no matter how unjust and unfair this tax system may be. So at that time it will become so bad that people will run away from the cities and villages and towns. They’ll run into the forests, just to be away from these demoniac rulers. There won’t be any law and order at that time. So at that time Kalki will appear and he will start to slaughter all these demons and he will wipe out all the demons and since most of the people will become demoniac, Kalki will actually destroy practically everybody. Only a handful of devotees will be spared and with them the Satya Yuga will begin, Satya Yuga will start.
Yes?

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, what is the difference between abhakta and ajnana?
BCS: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnana? [The rest of the conversation in Hindi, translation by the transcriber] You tell me. You spoke in Hindi, abhakta means one who is not a devotee and ajnana means one who has no knowledge. So what does it mean? We have found the meanings of the words, so what is your question?
Devotee: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnani?

BCS: What is the difference between abhakta and ajnani. When ignorance is dispelled we receive knowledge. When one receives knowledge it doesn’t automatically mean that he has become a devotee.

Devotee: They are different things?
BCS: They are different things. When one receives real knowledge, what is real knowledge? Real knowledge is that to surrender unto the Lord is life’s ultimate goal. And when people do that then they become devotees, alright? Meaning that one can become knowledgeable once the ignorance is dispelled but that is not the highest goal. After receiving knowledge when one starts to render service to the Lord then the ultimate goal of life is achieved. There is another consideration. Someone in ignorance can become a knowledgeable devotee of the Lord. When one is in ignorance he becomes knowledgeable by receiving knowledge. One who is not a devotee of the Lord he can be a knowledgeable person, he can’t stay in ignorance. He can be knowledgeable but he is still a non-devotee.

Devotee: One should not associate with a non-devotee?
BCS: Yes.

Devotee: So how can a non-devotee become knowledgeable?
BCS: How can a non-devotee become knowledgeable. Like there are big scholars (pundits), if they are non-devotees, what can you do? Will you associate with them? What will happen if you associate with them? Will you gain anything?
Devotee: No not with non-devotees.

BCS: That’s why you must not associate with non-devotees. You can associate with someone in ignorance, but never associate with a non-devotee. Non-devotee [abhakta] means one who is against the Lord. Those who are envious of the Lord, if you associate with them there are chances of falling down (going against the Lord). Hare Krishna.

Okay, thank you very much! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

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Transcription : Her Grace Ranga Radhika Dasi
Editing : Ramananda Raya Dasa

Audio reference: click here